Chris Bryce: All right. We are live on episode 39 of Beyond the CMS, where we open the discussion to anything to do with content operations, platforms, content management. AI is all in the mix as well. Yeah, it's going into our third year. We always have a special guest from one of the great content platforms out there, and especially great when we have one of our partners join.

Chris Bryce: Today we're joined by Joel Goodman from Squiz. Just before we get into introductions, I just wanna say thanks to everyone for joining, Joel, and particularly you, and anyone who's taken a break from their lunch hour to listen to us. The whole idea is ask us anything. We got some things that we do wanna share that are relevant to content operations and the state of content now and into the future.

Chris Bryce: I'm kind of tracking the LinkedIn channel, so if anyone does ask, have a question, just let us know and we'll be happy to answer that. If there's something that you'd like to ask us but prefer that we get in touch with you later, just leave a comment in the channel there and we'll follow up. We'll be posting this to YouTube afterwards, and Apple, Spotify, and podcasts.

Chris Bryce: But yeah, let's get started. Joel, thanks for joining us. Maybe you wanna introduce yourself a little bit and Squiz.

Joel Goodman: Yeah, sure. Well, first, like Chris, 39 episodes, like that's, that's a big deal. Congrats. That's, that's incredible. It's cool. And yeah, it's like if you're into CMSs, it's really cool, not your average kind of drive home kind of content, but for me, I think it's really cool.

Chris Bryce: Thanks, man.

Joel Goodman: Well, I just happen to be into CMSs, so this is a special treat for me, so thanks for having us on. Yeah, as you said, Joel Goodman, I'm the VP of Growth Strategy for the Northern Hemisphere at Squiz, which is a DXP provider.

Joel Goodman: So we kind of run the gamut with digital experience platform. Some people ask, especially when I'm out at events, depending on kind of the sector we're in, they're like, what's a DXP? I don't really know what that is. And what I've been telling a lot of people is that you think about all the stuff you're supposed to be doing with your website and you've been told to be doing with your website for the last like 10 years.

Joel Goodman: We have that built in and connected. So everything from your basic content management down to personalization and AB testing. And we now have AI content readiness. We've got a conversational search platform and, I think one of, if not the best site search tools that's out there, with a really, really cool history.

Joel Goodman: My background is primarily in higher education. I ran an agency for 13 years before joining Squiz last year. And yeah, I'm excited to be in this role because I actually just really love the products that we have. I was inspired by them as an agency owner, dealing with clients, and was looking to become a partner.

Joel Goodman: And it just kind of turned out that I had a great set of overlap skills with the Squiz team and a great rapport with them. And as our president, Anthony Negro X to say the, he saw a digital, spiritual alignment between me and Squiz. And I also really feel that. So I'm nerdy.

Joel Goodman: I do tech, I do design, I do all of it. Like I'm ready to chat, Chris.

Chris Bryce: Awesome. Awesome. Well, stay tuned, we might need to get an extra big luncheon, spend our time together. But yeah, so we were introduced to Squiz at one of the CMS Expert Group meetings a couple years ago, and it was fundamentally around search, so we were kind of exploring.

Chris Bryce: We are traditionally in the composable space, and we were looking for search solutions to kind of complement some of the tooling we were already using. And I thought it was really cool that we could actually compose your search into some of the other tools we were using. So it caught me thinking about.

Chris Bryce: How you architect your product to be, you could either use components of it, or what the real beauty is, is that DXP holistic, here's your entire content solution. Maybe a good place to start chatting is around search, your thoughts on search, how it's evolved, and then we'll kind of get into what are the benefits.

Chris Bryce: The folks who typically listen in now and later are CMO, VP Marketing folks, involved in making these decisions around content platforms, but search is often overlooked. And at the end of the implementation, it's like, oh, how do we find our stuff? What are your thoughts on that?

Joel Goodman: Yeah, so I mean, I've been on kind of the research side, and definitely more on the product and sales side of it now, and search is one of those things that everyone just has to have, right? I mean, you might leave it as kind of an afterthought, and then you end up with something standard or generic, like a Google programmable search or something like that, where it's free or pretty cheap to put on your site, but then you start to use it for a while and you start to question the quality of the results.

Joel Goodman: Coming up, and nowadays, I mean just even in the last, probably three months, the whole AI visibility, 'cause people are changing how they search wider on the web. That whole reality and shift I think has become top of mind for a lot of marketers. I know it probably dominates 80% of the conversations I have with marketers across every sector, and we're all worried, like, if the.

Joel Goodman: If the tactics that I was using before for search engine optimization are no longer working, 'cause all of these properties we don't control have changed how they surface content, how they give it to the people that are looking for us, what can we do to kind of adapt and change?

Joel Goodman: And so there's kind of two parts to this, I think. On the kind of user experience side of it, people are used to having these conversational interactions online. Now they're searching primarily through ChatGPT, or, not really, because I think I saw a stat the other day that Google still has like 356 times the search volume of a ChatGPT sort of thing.

Joel Goodman: But of the AI searches, ChatGPT is dominating, kind of 80% of those queries that are happening. But then you get into just traditional Google searches and you're getting AI overviews and summaries, or you might be pushed into an AI mode by Google. And so it's getting to a point where we don't have a lot of choice over whether we're using AI with search or whether we're not.

Joel Goodman: And when you kind of look at the patterns that are being pushed on us as we're out there on the web using other people's products, it only makes sense that our customers, our audiences that are using our websites, are going to become used to those interactions. And so if conversational search, if this idea of asking a question to your search engine of choice and getting an answer back, and then potentially interrogating it more to kind of drill down to better answers, is the de facto pattern people are experiencing out on the web.

Joel Goodman: Why wouldn't you want that on your own website once they actually get there? So I think there's kind of a few layers here. There are a lot of AI searches that are out there that can be put on any website. Squiz definitely offers one, but ours is different because it's built on over a decade of actual search use.

Joel Goodman: Our search algorithms are tuned and tested and proven in the market. And now we have this AI layer that isn't just bringing in content from all over the web and trying to figure out a good answer for you. It's looking at your content, the search index on your website, using your actual content and what you're saying on your website, to provide these answers to people that are asking your search question.

Joel Goodman: If you're going with the traditional kind of Google, where it's just the list of links, look, Google's really good with billions and billions of data points, but your website probably, well, definitely does not have that many. Google's not that great with it, and I think that's why you see a lot of people questioning and looking at options other than Google for their website, because they realize after.

Joel Goodman: Six months, five years, whatever it is, that the quality of those answers isn't great. So if you can fix the quality issue of the answers, and then you can get a nice conversational UX layer on top of it, that's really only using your own content, you kind of have a win for people to be able to find the content that they're looking for on your site a lot quicker than they might have before.

Joel Goodman: And definitely in a less, I guess, more frictionless way than they might have previously.

Chris Bryce: Right. Yeah, good points. And it kind of, at Dotfusion we're kind of a combination of UX, UI and implementation. So thinking through content and information architectures and borden, this idea of a highly intelligent, kind of AI-ish insight search is also really changing the way that we look at taxonomies and content.

Chris Bryce: If you're simply able to ask, search for something and search produces it, well, our argument, which is a bit contrarian to our own kind of make things look really beautiful beliefs, there's a shift going where it's let's deprioritize 30% of the brand experience and subtleties and animations.

Chris Bryce: Let's put that effort into highly structured data. That's gonna produce the better results, internal search and external AEO and SEO. And I think that's just something that we're coming to terms with, is finding the balance where it still looks cool but not compromising schema structure, that kind of thing.

Joel Goodman: Yeah, I get that. And I think, that's, I've had that conversation a lot over the last year, because I think there was, I have a LinkedIn post where, this was before I joined Squiz, but I was like, so, if the robots are coming for us, why do we do design at all?

Joel Goodman: Why do we even care about UX? What's the point of all this sort of stuff? Why don't we just have giant markdown files and that's our entire thing, 'cause that seems to be what all the AI bots are reading anyway. And I think there's an argument for, yeah, you need the structured side, you need the schema, you need those sorts of things.

Joel Goodman: But when you look at the research coming out of some of the kind of bigger SEO plays, like there's, you know, Ahrefs or SEMrush, these companies, they're doing deep research into how LLMs are processing the content on your website. And Squiz actually has a tool that we're rolling out here, called Content Intelligence, that does this a bit too.

Joel Goodman: And what we're finding in our research, and what we've found through the research that we've done for our customers, rolling out conversational search on their websites, is that it's not just the technical side of structuring the content. It's really about making your content readable and understandable to the machines.

Joel Goodman: But also to real people. So there's still, we're still dealing with accessibility legalities that are coming up all over the world. The US has new laws coming into play on accessibility. There's tons happening in Europe. The US, Canada's led on this for years and years.

Joel Goodman: It's important that what we build and what we put on our website is accessible to all people. Right, to just all humans. And we're finding also that it's important that it's accessible and understandable for AI. And so what I keep coming back to is that this question of generative engine optimization, of answer engine optimization, of being visible on AI search platforms, really still comes down to really good content strategy.

Joel Goodman: That's a whole big topic, right? It's organization of content. It's how your content's written, it's how it's ordered on the page. It's how understandable and clear it is for the people or robots that are reading it. And so that brand experience still comes into play, because eventually that's gonna be the only thing that differentiates you, at least in my opinion.

Joel Goodman: Right, like your specific point of view, and maybe specific visuals, that's the thing that's gonna differentiate you, while everyone else is busy trying to game a system that can't really be gamed because it's all predictive models. It's not like SEO, it's not like a Google bot that's parsing everything like it used to be.

Joel Goodman: Large language models work entirely different in how they interpret that content. So I think there's still a place for brand. But I do think, to your point, it's important to make sure that those underlying structures are in place. If people are already doing the technical SEO with schema markup, and using FAQs and all that kind of stuff that we talked about for years.

Joel Goodman: You kind of have a head start, and now it's time to really look at how your content's written and if it's understandable and parseable. And also if you look across your entire site and see if you have contradictions, like that's the biggest trip up. And we have tools at Squiz to do that now, because we've seen that as kind of a key barrier to really generating lift for a lot of our customers.

Joel Goodman: And a lot of the sectors that we serve.

Chris Bryce: Super cool. Yeah, I just wanted to ask you next about how you might kind of solve a typical problem that we have day to day with our customers. So here's kind of the scene, large commercial property management owner, real estate investor.

Chris Bryce: They've got 500 office towers all over the world, and within those office towers, there's hundreds of units of space available that have attributes to them, square footage, proximity to restaurants, all this kind of data associated with the space, which is kind of their product. And for years, the emphasis has been on.

Chris Bryce: Make sure when someone gets to that property, it's a really beautiful rendering of the building, right? We have drone footage of the building and we show all of this real beautiful presentation layer stuff, and now what's happening with the kind of AEO thing is realizing that there is absolutely no structured data associated with these units of things at all.

Chris Bryce: So, okay, let's say there's a thousand pages on one site that needs schema added to it. Do you have solutions for automating the injection of schema onto that page? Or how are you kind of facilitating the content operations around tuning new content?

Joel Goodman: Sure. Yeah, so a lot of our focus really has been more on the quality of the content versus the structural side of it.

Joel Goodman: That said, with our full DXP, getting into kind of the content editing side of it, that's where you get the tools to be able to edit the underlying code. And I think there's a little bit of maybe misunderstanding generally around how schema works, and where it's, I mean, that's a code-based thing, right?

Joel Goodman: It's gotta go in the underlying source code on the page. It's not just a, toss it in your content.

Chris Bryce: I mean, people don't wanna look, people don't wanna look at it. It's kind of technical, right?

Joel Goodman: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And there are ways to automate it with JavaScript, and kind of setting that up.

Joel Goodman: But I think again, that comes down to really good architecture of the pages on your site, being able to go in and say, the beauty about schema, right, is that it is structured, so it's basically a template. So it's putting a template inside of a template in a lot of ways. So you can standardize that across thousands of pages, and just make sure that what's being pulled from your CMS is going into that structured data on the page underneath.

Joel Goodman: So it's kind of a one-time, go through, get it set up, and then it can just run beyond that. I think, to your point about having these beautiful drone videos and things, one of the things that's coming to light is that website performance is actually still a metric in how large language models parse your website and get you visible in these AI searches.

Joel Goodman: Because it's fine, I hadn't, I learned this like last week, literally. I learned this from Michael King, who's an SEO pro, an incredible SEO pro. And he found during some research that he was doing that Nginx, which is basically a caching layer, or like a server layer that a lot of CMSs use, actually has an error code that it created called a 499 code.

Joel Goodman: That is basically, this is, yeah, this is new to you, Chris, this is new to you, Chris, I was totally new to me last week. There's a 499 code that goes up, and it's basically saying, you know, it's taking too long to load all the content on this page. It's not really a timeout error, but you kind of think of it in that way.

Joel Goodman: And most of the LLMs will actually see that 499 code, and they'll just stop and they'll move on and go to another website. So if they're looking to answer someone's query and they're bringing in live sources, you'll just get skipped over.

Joel Goodman: If your website's slow, you won't even show up in that. And I love web performance, that's been the last like 10 years of my life, has been web performance optimization. And I heard that and I was like, validation, yes, right, it's still relevant. I was like a little worried about it.

Joel Goodman: But so like there's still very, it just goes back like UX content strategy, all these things still matter in the age of AI. And so a text file might be a lot quicker for an AI to parse and bring in, but then what happens when someone actually comes to your website and all they're getting is a text file.

Joel Goodman: Are they actually gonna convert? It's kind of like we've got this multi-step conversion process, where we have to soft convert for the AI, and then once someone actually gets to our website, they actually still have to convert once they land. And so, yeah, again, I just think careful understanding of who your human users are is still very critical to success here.

Joel Goodman: And if you do right by the humans, you're probably gonna be doing right by the AI as well.

Chris Bryce: Yeah, and I'm sure that they're going to be maturing as well. And I found it wasn't easy for Google to adjust its algorithms just for fear of kind of pissing too many organizations off. You do all this work for your SEO rankings and you're gone the next day.

Chris Bryce: And it really didn't have many data points to adjust to, like backlinking, you can kind of scrub them out, and it did make some progress. But I could see AI maturing to go, we're probably at stage one of a hundred on this AEO journey, where right now it's still a little relying on SEO tactics.

Chris Bryce: You know, I could tell. But it's kind of like when I go, who's the best digital agency in Toronto, and then it goes, instead of giving you a list, it goes, tell me more about what you're looking for. Like, are you looking headless? Are you looking for design focus? Are you looking by industry? Like, maybe it pre-filters a little bit.

Chris Bryce: And then that forces you to go niche. And I already saw yesterday we rank at number one for one of our particular long-tail keywords. And I asked it why, and it says, because you specifically do this, where these competitors of yours do that and other stuff, and it put us ahead of them.

Chris Bryce: Interesting, because of our focus. And that was new. Kind of getting a little off the Squiz track, but.

Joel Goodman: That's super interesting, that's a super interesting data point. And it makes me think, like, what's the weighting inside the model, because we've heard this, you've heard this.

Joel Goodman: All over the place, like a lot of companies, small shops especially, will start up and they want to go niche, and so they'll focus on one thing and they get a lot of reach for it because they're like the pro. And it's interesting to think, like, maybe the LLMs are kind of tuned to, you know, you own that domain, and so that's the thing you should rank for.

Joel Goodman: I'm curious about that. I'm gonna have to do some research, 'cause that's a really interesting line of thought. I'll do a little blog post on that because.

Chris Bryce: Oh, yeah. But I want the focus to be on Squiz here, and one of the main, go back to the beginning topics, is around the slight confusion that our customers, who are kind of mid-large enterprise, a CMO, VP of Marketing, is chatting with us about making this big digital platform decision.

Chris Bryce: They're still really not clear on DXP, content platform, composable, monolithic, it's just kind of mostly industry jargon in a way. Where they're like, I got this big team of content publishers and editors with all these crazy workflows, can you make my life easy?

Chris Bryce: Where does Squiz fit into that world, and how do you communicate the type of CMS you are?

Joel Goodman: So as a DXP platform, we, or DXP platform is redundant, but as a DXP, 'cause DXP stands for Digital Experience Platform, as a DXP, one of our key value props is come as you are, bring the tools that you're already using, whether it's.

Joel Goodman: A customer data platform, or a CRM, or your email sending tools, or analytics, or whatever, come as you are. And we have integrations platform as a service built in, so you can pull all of those in, and we have the tooling to make them work with all of the content that you might have on our platform.

Joel Goodman: So our DXP is made up of a few different things. There's the content management system, which, everyone knows what a content management system does, right? Ours has a really great UX. All of our products are designed to be easy to use, have a really clean UX, so that it's easy for non-technical users to jump in and just get it and understand it.

Joel Goodman: We have a visual page builder, we've got component systems, we've got a way for your designers to bring their design systems over, and developers to build out a full design system within, so you can use all these branded components. And then those are all tied into our customer data platform.

Joel Goodman: You can bring your own if you want, we have one built in as well, which then enables personalization and AB testing, and kind of all of the experimentation stuff that you need to be doing to have really effective marketing. So it's a low barrier to entry on that front. And then we have our search platform, which integrates with all of that as well.

Joel Goodman: And it's called Funnelback. And then we have conversational search on top of that. You can take Funnelback out and use it with any CMS, it doesn't have to be on ours. But you do get benefits when it's tied into our backend systems and all of the things that we have in place.

Joel Goodman: The other great thing about our platform is deep integration with AWS and with CloudFlare actually. We recently won some awards, last year we got recognized by CloudFlare as one of the top innovators of the year. Our dev team has done some just incredible cool stuff on the CloudFlare platform, which no one would call CloudFlare a platform like a few years ago.

Joel Goodman: And it's like it truly is now, and we're doing some cool stuff with that. And then, on the AI front, we've actually, AI today is basically machine learning, and we've had that in our search platform for at least 15 years, 10 years, something like that. So there's a lot of history there.

Joel Goodman: And we're taking a very careful view as to how we integrate AI practices across our platforms, so that they're helpful, it's something that's gonna be helpful to people and not get in the way of what they're doing. On the headless side of things, we're a hybrid system.

Joel Goodman: So our CMS will generate a website and you get the full visuals and everything else, similar to a CMS that you edit in one place and it just builds the site. But we also have an entire API. So if you want to go headless, and I think this is a key feature of DXP, if you want to do headless for.

Joel Goodman: Maybe it is the main website, maybe it's just headless for other properties that you have out there, you want to get your data out of our CMS out into some other display. Could be a native, like a mobile app, could be a web app somewhere else, could be another system internally, you can go headless with it.

Joel Goodman: So it's a true hybrid system that allows you to just get up and running right away and have a website that works, and is very performant, and takes advantage of all of the things that we've worked with on the personalization front. Or you can go the hard way and build your own front end and have to do a bunch of extra work to kind of pull those things in.

Joel Goodman: I don't know if you find this, Chris, but when I was running my agency, people would talk about wanting headless, and I would often question, I'd be like, why? What's the thinking behind wanting to go headless? It's not that it's bad, but I think for a lot of organizations that are either running lean or have smaller teams, it's just adding extra overhead to what they have to do, because you're building.

Joel Goodman: Almost a separate app to work with, whatever app is running your content system. And so we provide the flexibility for that in our DXP, because the DXP needs to, you need to be able to use your content in thousands of different places as you mature and start figuring out what other properties you need.

Joel Goodman: But at the same time, sometimes you just need to manage a website that's effective, allows you to do personalization and AB testing, allows you to have really good permissioning and a really good content authoring experience, and have it just work. And so that's why we've taken that hybrid approach.

Chris Bryce: Yeah, it is, the reason we love Squiz is it gives us a rounded offering in what Dotfusion implements. Most of our customers are transitioning off kind of monolith, from Adobe AEM stuff or Sitecore.

Chris Bryce: And they wanna get into a more nimble, speedy, but they have the infrastructure to support headless.

Joel Goodman: Right, they've got, they probably have some of the composable assets already.

Chris Bryce: Yeah, so, okay, cool. But man, is it ever nice just to get everything you need and know what it costs? That's the biggest challenge for us, all of the effort we put into getting a customer or a client, and we compose a system for them, and we're kind of like, well, I don't actually know what this is gonna cost you. I don't know, because we've got four or five different partners that are looking at consumption-based models, and we'll see how it turns out.

Joel Goodman: Right. No, and it just, it adds overhead, and it really is just a business decision, right? Do you have the capacity for managing that extra overhead? What's the purpose of it? I mean, I think on a website front, could make some arguments for better performance. I think because typically if you're doing a headless system, your front end's gonna be a static site, or it's gonna be something that's cached very heavily and run at the edge.

Joel Goodman: But honestly, Squiz's front ends are run at the edge on CloudFlare. All of our personalization is done at the edge. There are benefits to working on a platform, well, I'll back up, there are benefits to not locking yourself into just one approach, I think is what it is.

Joel Goodman: And so if you're only working on a CMS that's monolithic, or you're only working on a CMS that's headless, you don't really have options to make a quick business decision one way or the other when the need crops up.

Chris Bryce: Right. Yeah, it's interesting. Also, I notice that we have a note here from Janice.

Chris Bryce: Sorry to just do an aside here. She says, totally makes sense to me to have an AI summary on client website. Does this happen automatically once you get connected to this Squiz platform, or some kind of setup involved, AI summary. Oh, I see, I think she's kind of wondering how does that information translate from web to the AI summary and whatever tool you're using.

Joel Goodman: Yeah, so using our Funnelback platform with conversational search, we have a full search index of your website. And then what happens is, someone, when using conversational search, will ask their question in your site search, right? It goes back to our AI backend, our models then query the search database.

Joel Goodman: So it does a little search on your behalf, brings it back. The AI then says, okay, how can I answer the user's question based on these results that came back in our search? And then, as it's getting ready to return that, we have a secondary guardian agent that comes in and says, wait, wait.

Joel Goodman: Let's double check this, make sure that you actually answer the question, make sure that it's actually using sources from your web content. If everything is good, then it sends it back to the front end and it generates that AI summary. So all those AI summaries that you see online, anywhere else, are generated on the fly.

Joel Goodman: And it's the same thing with ours, it's just that our source material is only from the content on the website. And then those end up being cached. If there's questions that are common, those answers will generally be cached and then be brought up so that you're not wasting a bunch of AI inference costs on some of those questions.

Chris Bryce: Time goes by pretty quickly, we're just kind of at the end of the allotted time, but I did just wanna talk to you a little bit about the industries you serve, your roadmap, where you're heading, who would you like to be speaking to. This video's gonna be found later on, and I'm just kind of looking for some keywords for you as well.

Chris Bryce: I know that there was a bit of, kind of higher ed was where it was really shown in its infancy. Tell me a bit about where you're going.

Joel Goodman: Yeah, we still have a very deep focus on higher education, that's my background here in the States, is in higher ed, and we have good market traction both in Australia and the UK.

Joel Goodman: We also do professional services, so whether that's legal firms, legal services, if it's accounting firms, we've been working with them, and also governments, a lot of local governments, state governments, in Australia we work with a lot of government entities, really any sector where you have a whole lot of content that you need to make sense of.

Joel Goodman: That's kind of where we shine, because a lot of our tools are really built on making content easier to consume, easier to find, easier to sell your brand, sell your services, or communicate what it is that you need. And then our content intelligence tools that are rolling out are really good for anyone, if we're honest, anyone that's looking for better AI visibility in those circular ChatGPT search or Google search, content intelligence is, I mean, it's a win.

Joel Goodman: It'll give you specific things to take action on, and you don't really see that in a lot of the other tools that are out there doing that.

Chris Bryce: That's interesting. And for folks that wanna get a hold of you, or get a demo of Squiz, or find out more, what's that pathway to get that information?

Joel Goodman: Well first, find me on LinkedIn, Joel Goodman. You'll find me, I'm listed as working for Squiz, so pretty easy to find me online. I'm also connected with Chris, so if you're connected with Chris, I'll probably show up there. That's a really easy way to get in touch with me, otherwise.

Joel Goodman: Our website is squiz.net.

Chris Bryce: Oh, dude, you gotta tell me about the name. Sorry, I meant, just so we have this for, yeah.

Joel Goodman: Yeah, it's a pretty short story. So Squiz is an Australian term, and we are an Australian company. We were founded about 26 years ago in Australia.

Joel Goodman: And it basically means to take a quick close look at something.

Chris Bryce: Okay, okay. Yeah, you just don't hear it in North America, really?

Joel Goodman: And you don't really hear it in the UK either, you hear it a little bit in New Zealand. But yeah, so this sort of thing where, if you lost your keys or something, you're like, oh, I need to have a squiz for my keys.

Joel Goodman: You just wanna typically find something, or have a squiz at that article later, that sort of thing. So yeah.

Chris Bryce: Awesome. That's how it works. I love it, I love it. Well, we're running out of time. I would really love to dedicate some time in the next couple months or so to do more of a demo, so we can show folks just how totally amazing the UI is, and the experience for authors and editors and workflows, and get into the backend a little bit.

Chris Bryce: But hey, thanks to everyone who made a little bit of time this afternoon, and who is making time in the future to listen to this in video or podcast form. Joel, thanks for carving out some time in your day, really appreciate it. That was super cool, and I just got 80,000 other things to talk to you about.

Chris Bryce: So we'll save that for our next jam. But hopefully folks find this information really interesting and useful. Stay tuned in the next couple weeks for what will be episode 40. And yeah, let's sign off. Joel, thank you very much, have a great day out there.

Joel Goodman: Thank you, Chris.